Cert Prices? And Alittle Grippy-grip

[killmon]

I would like to now what a reasonable price is and time frame for a TEFL or other cert,
I am not opposed to acquiring one. However, If the price is 1200 buck for a bull caca class to teach me how to organize a  uncreative lesson plan I will just do what I stated in the last paragraph.

Also, Although, anything that contributes to a persons ability to effectively do a job is a good thing, it is highly unlikely that any one course could, on it's own, effectively  prepare a person for a job that requires conveying content (of any type). In other words, a TEFL or other certification is (bar TEFL mills) is nice but If employers are using it as a mandatory requirement of hiring they are shooting themselves in the foot.

I have hired thousands of people for a thousand different positions, including teaching and understand the difficulty in finding good people. However, I have hired people, with high-level degree's, that where completely inept at performing in a real environment. And, I have hired people, with no education, that were unbelievably inelegant and driven to effectiveness.

I come from a family of PhD’s and someday maybe I will have mine (LOL)

So, all you employers out there listen up… somebody better hire me, without a generic CERT, or I will be tempted to Start a school!( LOL) If that doesn’t scare ya, it should. I have built and run 80 million dollar businesses for a 30 BILION dollar (Fortune 100) company…in under a year.  So, I could do it… Effectively… and teach someone how to say all of the above in English.

That felt good to say

Have a nice day  

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[cadykat]

yeahhhh, sure you shouldn´t be back in the states stepping on peons and ¨downsizing¨....... sorry but that attitude doesnt really work here in spain, and im very serious about that... maybe a little class room time wouldnt hurt you to remember that spain is nothing like the usa or english work ethic, people dont get anywhere with witty banter and a cut throat pressure of the job lifestyle. They start from the bottom even if it means doing something like the TEFL course which we all had to do (more or less). By the sounds of it, if you were putting together billion dollar companies, 1200 really hurts you? attitude is big here, dont come off as the poo-poo face american or you will find yourself jobless and possibly friendless.. good luck
katy

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[killmon]

Kate, If you step on people, you do not EFFECTIVLY do anything but piss the people off you need to build the business, silly!!  And, you reply is like stepping on me; that is a pretty strong thing to say with out knowing me, And, insulting. KATE....DO YOU RUN A TEFL MILL OR REQUIRE A TEFL BEFORE AN INTERVEIW?
   I only step on people that treat other people poorly for profit, on purpose...like TEFL MILLS and the people who help cause there existence by creating the market that requires them!!
And, if you read the post, with out getting plugged in and all sensitive, you would have noticed that I TALKED TO THE PEOLE AND EVALUATED THERE ABILLITIES BASED ON THEM, not what some jackass that said, 'here, look, this is how you write on a chalk board' here's your TEFL thanks for the $1200 dumb-ass. That doesn't mean all TEFL is bad (like I said in the post you failed to read or understand correctly)

    And, yes I did build large companies, however, just as that company did for me. Having that job put people through college, PAID FOR IT along with their salaries) gave people opportunities that the government would not, Like, Meeting my Spanish wife. I also, had the opportunity to see an employee’s wife be saved from cancer which the government would not do. He particularly felt step on by me...

    Maybe this time you should read the post in it's entirety and seek to understand the content of what it said. Not just attack it because you don't like how the person speaking up, spoke up..by saying,


   \" yeahhhh, sure you shouldn´t be back in the states stepping on peons and ¨downsizing¨....... sorry but that attitude doesnt really work here in spain, and im very serious about that... \" It is like you did not even read the first line?!

     I am sorry your attitude doesn't really work in the world!!!
And, obviously the attitude that you confused mine with does work in Spain, because, their is TEFL MILLS HERE! Which are businesses that do what you accuse my business of?

    And, let me get this straight...you would rather I did not have the sense to be pissed, that a system of EDUCATION, that is set up all around the world and  that has the effect of producing a MILLION TEFL Mills that step on broke kids and steal their 1200E? And, you call me a poo-poo faced American?!?!

      WEll, you sit back with you fancy ideals and judge others for speaking out, continue to drive your auto, continue to girlie doggie about the war, and damn it at the same time you cause it.  That way, while you judge the others for their action, you don't have to look at yours or your inaction and responsibility. Just like every employer that REQUIERS A TEFL BEFORE THEY EVEN INTERVIEW?!! And, then witches because the teachers take off after 6 months or that they aren't able to do the job properly.

O yeah, I have taught English in a classroom as well...

So, I say again and I will HIGHLIGHT the parts that you failed to read,
And, hopfully someone out there will understand why not being able to find a TEFL cert program out there that is creditable is nice..Or, maybe I will just give in an spend $250 bucks at a mill on ine and have it in a week.

And, good luck to you too,kate  And, have a nice day.

Again....
I would like to now what a reasonable price is and time frame for a TEFL or other cert,
I AM NOT OPPOSED TO ACQUIRING ONE. However, If the price is 1200 buck for a bull caca class to teach me how to organize a uncreative lesson plan I will just do what I stated in the last paragraph.

ALSO, ALTHOUGH ANNYTHING THAT CONTRIBUTES TO A PERSONS ABILLITY TO EFFECTIVELY DO A JOB IS A GOOD THING, it is highly unlikely that any one course could, on it's own, effectively prepare a person for a job that requires conveying content (of any type). In other words, a TEFL or other certification is (bar TEFL mills) is nice but If employers are using it as a mandatory requirement of hiring they are shooting themselves in the foot.

I have hired thousands of people for a thousand different positions, including teaching and understand the difficulty in finding good people. However, I have hired people, with high-level degree's, that where completely inept at performing in a real environment. And, I have hired people, with no education, that were unbelievably inelegant and driven to effectiveness.

I come from a family of PhD’s and someday maybe I will have mine (LOL)

So, all you employers out there listen up… somebody better hire me, without a generic CERT, or I will be tempted to Start a school!( LOL) If that doesn’t scare ya, it should. I have built and run 80 million dollar businesses for a 30 BILION dollar (Fortune 100) company…in under a year. So, I could do it… Effectively… and teach someone how to say all of the above in English.

Maybe this time you should read the post in it's entirety and seek to understand the content of what it said.

That felt good to say

Have a nice day  

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[mlwalton]

Ok mi gente....can we take it down a notch?  In the immortal words of Rodney King....\"Can't we all just get along?\"

I paid $1,500.00 for my TEFL certification, and it's worth every penny.  It gave me a refresher course in grammar, which was desperately needed (your students all want to know the grammar - so you've got to know it cold, understand it and be able to explain it, in simple languange and with lots of examples) as well as time management of a lesson among other things....

Having said that, personal bashing is not tolerated here at the cafe, difference of opinions, yes, productive discussions, yes, but personal slants and insults....absolutely not.  

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.  

Salud!

Michelle Save the :siesta:  

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[spanishsueños]

Hi Killmon,

I don't think Cadykat was trying to \"step on you.\" I think she was trying to point out that having a TEFL is a great way to start in this new career of yours!

I couldn't imagine how to start off teaching an English class before I took my course. Also note that I do in fact work for a TESOL course provider, which I believe Cadykat does not. I only write this because I want to be out in the open and not accused of pushing my course on anyone.

I hope more people will be able to give you advice on quality courses to take and I hope that you will seriously give thought to their recommendations. I can understand any frustration you might feel about paying any amount of money just to learn how to make a shoddy lesson plan. There is a great deal to be said about people who try and develop their teaching skills, don't automatically pass on judgment and dismiss what they have worked hard for. There are many great courses out there, and you should look for one that is right for you if youare serious bout this profession.

With a TEFL course underneath your belt hopefully you will be able to guide your students to not make mistakes such as this common one below:

  I TALKED TO THE PEOLE AND EVALUATED THERE [\B] ABILLITIES BASED ON THEM

Please understand that I am not trying to pick on you at all, hopefully encourage you! Someone else said this, and after ten minutes on google searching I still can't tell you who, but paraphrased here it is: The more I study the more I realize how little about the world I understand!

I hope that you enjoy teaching in Spain Killmon! Maybe someday when I can return with my Spanish husband in tow we can meet for a \"copa\" or two! I wish you luck in all your future plans!

 

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[tonytorero]

So, all you employers out there listen up… somebody better hire me, without a generic CERT, or I will be tempted to Start a school!( LOL) If that doesn’t scare ya, it should.

That's not a bad idea, Killmon. Actually, that's precisely what my wife and I did. However, we didn't do it right after we arrived. Before we came to Spain we both took TEFL courses. Now, I'm not a big lover of these courses and actually didn't enjoy mine a bunch but I have to admit that it did serve a purpose. It grounded me on some of the theory of ESL teaching. While I do believe that a good teacher can teach pretty much anything, different types of teaching require different types of prep. as well as a different approach.

The combination of my TEFL course, teaching for a school for a year and just a general disgust with the way many language consultancies and academies operate is what pushed us to try and do something on our own but I don't think think there's any way we'd have been ready to take that plunge without some background on the subject. Whether you do that with a TEFL equivalent course, teaching experience or both will be part of your own personal experience.

On another note, I didn't interpret what Katy wrote as being malicious. Keep in mind that we expats who spend time 'outside of the nest' can tend to develop healthy cynisim toward some of the customs that we may have previously embraced while 'inside the nest' hook, line and sinker without really thinking about it. I don't know... I kind of interpreted that she may have been responding in part to this and not directing what she wrote at your personally. Katy's a great gal who's been a great contributer around here for a long time. We really want BOTH of you around here for a long time to come.

Can't we all just get along....         Oh well, that's some more 'leña para el fuego'. (Wood for the fire/stuff to think about)

 

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[Expat_teacher]

Hiya Killmon ---

After reading your initial post, I thought....\"this guy's got a point\". I am no big fan of all the TEFL mills out there either. However, my second thought was,...
\"geeze, he sure could use a piece of humble pie right now\".

There are many, many English teachers in Spain who come from all walks of life. Some have strong business experience such as yourself, others are fresh college graduates. Believe me when I tell you that you aren't the first executive-come-English teacher around these parts. And believe me when I tell you that teaching English is indeed a humbling experience. I think cadyKat was responding to what could have been interpreted as arrogance in your first post (whether or not that was your intent). Like the other posters, I don't think her post was intended to insult you, but rather make you see that the well-known American arrogance (and I have been guilty of it too) isn't so warmly received in Spain.

One thing I do hate is generalizations. Especially when I hear things such as \"Americans are....follow this by some negative comment\". I also apply this to TEFL schools. Not all TEFL schools are the same and not all are TEFL mills. It's a question of you doing your due-diligence and researching the ones that most interest you, if in fact, that is the route you are going to take.

I don't have a TEFL, but then again, I have been here in Spain longer than I can remember and much before the TEFL industry mushroomed here. I now rely on my years of teaching experience and many satisfied clients for word of mouth referrals. I can understand your frustration at schools/employers that use it as a screening device, but then again, put yourself in their shoes. Knowing that Spain is such a highly desirable place to live and that people will do anything to support their life here, even if it means English teaching... hmmm that isn't exactly a promising prospect for a serious school/business that has its image to maintain, its business to run, its profits to make and its clients to please. So, requiring a TEFL cert is a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff....especially when there are so many \"English teachers\" out there.

My suggestion to you is, if you have demonstrable teaching experience, then by all means highlight that on your resume. Don't sweat the TEFL cert. But you should know that many employers are looking for people who are serious, have reasonable skills and/or experience and often put their trust in these TEFL programs to turn out good teachers. A director of studies doesn't have unlimited of time to interview every candidate that sends him/her their resume. So, some sort of requirement or tool to help them sort through the piles of resumes they surely receive is absolutely necessary. In many cases, it is the TEFL certification if the applicant does not have any other relevant experience.

Do I think you become a doggone good English teacher by taking a 4 week TEFL course? Of course not. Am I convinced that someone can be a good English teacher just because they speak it natively and has started/managed multi-million dollar businesses? Nope. It takes a bit more than foot stomping and arrogancy to get hired. And if you do get hired by foot stomping and arrogancy, watch out...chances are you are being used by some cowboy set up that just needs a warm body in a classroom.

Sorry everyone, my sermon is about to finish. I just would like to add one thing... a good TEFL program will help you to see your own weaknesses and limitations as a native speaker...help you to identify your grammar and spelling mistakes (and no offense Killmon, but you should re-read your post), help you to organize lesson plans, and implement classroom management skills. Becoming a good teacher is something that happens over time. Not in four weeks.

(I am now stepping off my soapbox).

Just some food for thought.

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[killmon]

Thank you all for your input! My willingness and desire to acquire or take a cert is shown by my original mail, and I do see the benefits. I am just skeptical to its value. For 1200E I can just about get a minor in English from a UNI. So, I have high expectations from anyone that is offering this TEFL. Also, I could use the money to pay for my own time to research the topic. So, that is why it is my mind is challenged by the idea.

The quote that the more --- Please understand that I am not trying to pick on you at all, hopefully encourage you! Someone else said this, and after ten minutes on google searching I still can't tell you who, but paraphrased here it is: The more I study the more I realize how little about the world I understand!

=The more I know, the less I know… Is true, however, to quote my book, “what I do know will not be discounted by what I don’t”.  I will always be just as Dumb as I am smart.

Basically, I am aware that there is much I don’t know, However that is not a valid argument against what I do….

I will always have things to learn about teaching… However, that doesn’t mean I want to allow the idiot in me to pay for something that doesn’t teach me something worth the price I pay.

       And, about the in correct writing in my post, Language has rules and grammar and words and punctuation and stuff and things and more things and interpretation and all are only guidelines.  SO, to break the rules for effect, to reflect ones tone, and to stress ones personality (like above) is also part of writing.    I don't care how much anyone knows, we ALL with ALWAYS MAKE MISTAKES IN WRITING!  I am, and always will be, a HORRIBLE SPELLER!! NO, REALLY I DARE YOU TO FIND WORSE!!!! If it were not for spell check I would invent my own language!! I forever use affect in place of effect, then and than, and there for their; it is ridiculous!! Some of it is just typing to fast for my ability.
   
    Also, there are many theories of teaching from direct method to audio-lingual, what is more effective....My experience is that it depends on the people in the class.

Anyway, to Kate, I took it a little personal because you used ‘You’, which means ‘ME’. (LOL) I apologize for being harsh. However, I am a little sensitive and have little tolerance for anyone talking bad about any countries culture, whether it is the U.S or Mongolia. I don't care what country anyone is from; for one country, or culture, to pass judgment on any other is crap
      I have lived in 3 and they all do the same dumb stuff. While the U.S. is trying to FIX the world they aren't FIXING the U.S., while Germany talks about how bad the U.S is they aren't talking about how they can fix their economy (I find it resemblance in election out comes hilarious), and while Spain is talking about the States they aren't finding a solution for the water in the south, or picking up the garbage everyone is throwing everywhere. Oh yeah and China is setting its self up to rule the world!! LOL
It is very convenient for everyone to point out the dog poop in others backyards while they don't pick up there own. Everyone needs to get back in their own yard or at least stay out of others (including the States).
It is ok too like one over the other, but, understand that what we think is right or wrong is relative to OUR OWN perception and is not universal.


Anyway, I love all the intellectual banter and thank you all for your input on the TELF cert stuff. I still got enough cash till March so…I see if I can find one I think is worth it or maybe some one is really excited about class they took. Or, maybe… I will get a job with out it…..

( you can correct this one if ya want but I am sure it is filled the errors of grammatical indifference and possibly judgment, which is one of  my points. :blink: )

-Thanks, Killmon




 

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[Mikahl]

Wow! I read this post a few days ago and it has turned into quite a thread. Let me just say that during my first semester in Sevilla I was with a group that wanted to prove how \"american\" they were. More than that they wanted to show how much better it was to be american, and how stupid any nation was for not imitating our \"culture.\" No American will get very far in the world with the \"don't you see how stupid you are for not being like us\" attitude. please do not perpetuate the idea that Americans have more money than brains.

I must concur with Katy. If you have so much money why don't you just take a course? For that matter, why don't you make your stay in spain more viable by starting a business with all the money you have?

I would take it down a notch with attitude. Your time in spain will be miserable otherwise. The money talks mentality doesn't work the same way as it does in the states. But you will find all of that out soon enough.

 

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[killmon]

Again, Read the thread. You are applying meaning that is not there... I don't think any culture is better than another... I think all cultures have their pros and cons based on what I preserve as right and wrong....

I am not trying to prove how smart I am and I never said anyone was stupid for not being like me. And,I never said money talks. I swear it's like you are reading anouther thread!!

   I have moments of both unbelievable intellect and unbelievable stupidity. Like everyone. Neither of which are quantifiable; making it pointless for me to try to convince anyone of either.

Whether I think I am better than someone based on my perception of the moral, economic, or spiritual right and wrong I assign it, Does not mean that what I think is ‘better’ is in line with what you assign as better.

   I would think it is stupid to pay someone for something that does not add value whether I was American or not. I did say, and I quote, \"I would like to now what a reasonable price is and time frame for a TEFL or other cert,
I am not opposed to acquiring one.\"

   I have humility, although I also, have confidence, and sometimes, I am sure I over estimate my abilities; I don’t believe this is one of those time. I am Humble in my arrogance (I really like that one).  

   Humility is a perception... Because you perceive my confidence in my abilities to start a business as arrogant (because I am American?) you fail to see the humilities in the original question... I am not the one that made this about being American…. People all over the world are great a business. I (based on my past experience in American and internationally) am just confidant that I am one of them.

      Also, I never said I have a lot of money... That is also, a matter of perception... even if I did I will spend it on a cert that is worth it and won’t on one that is not (if I can find one). And, If all I find are schools that hire TEFL cert and can’t find a Cert that is good, Yes, it will annoy me to a point above my currant laziness (brought on by the term siesta   ) to start my own school. I have reason to be confidant in this due to my past experience; that’s not arrogance that’s confidence. I never said it would be easy either.

The accusation of arrogance is commonly use (as a red herring) in conflict because people view it as negative and are quickly caught up in what is right and wrong. The funny thing is that most people don’t know what it means or use it properly.

arrogance Adjective- having an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities.

Confidence - noun 2 self-assurance arising from an appreciation of one’s abilities.
• adjective 1 feeling confidence in oneself. 2 feeling certainty about something.

   These are from oxford dictionary online. The difference between arrogance and confidence is one of perception. The readers could gather evidence to support either opinion. However, seeing that not one person, that has said that I am arrogant, has ever met me. Or, truly has an understanding of what I am capable of that is based on knowledge of my experience pool,  Them stating that I am arrogant is an arrogant act in itself. I have no doubt that each of these people are important, however, I doubt their abilities are of that magnitude.

There is an old saying, “Don’t pray for patients or the universe will put things in your life for you to practice with; that applies to humility as well. I don’t need a dose of humility. I need a dose of good information that leads me to the answer I ask originally (which I perceive as having an ample amount of both confidence and humility).

So, I have a question? What is wrong with being American, wanting to find good info about a Cert program, and being confidant in ones abilities?

      For the record, my books topics are, the relationship between feelings, thinking, and behavior, their effect/affect on what we perceive as right, and wrong and the use of language in conflict” Among other things. (LOL) Which, hopefully, I can gain insight into why people (like Kate and I) choose to pick out the words we see as arrogant (Like in my original thread) And, ignore the ones we could perceive as evidence of humility (Like in my original thread), or vise versa. When we as a world can understand our part in a conflict, how we choose to perceive things, and the fact we choose our perception we will have better marriages, countries, and futures.

It is time for FOOD!!!! I really love this topic but still would love and answer to my original question.

Thanks, Killmon  
 

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[Mikahl]

You're just going to have to roll the dice dude. It is a crap shoot. There is no better business bureau for TEFL courses. There is a group that allows posts from former students to comment on TEFL schools. But I think people have already answered your question very well. You will probably have to get a certification. Sorry that the esl system in Spain is set up this way. I'm sure that everyone here wishes you the best of luck.

 

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[cadykat]

Well, I guess its about time I add another of my 5 cents... listen killmon take it down a noch man.... it´s spain, drink a caña, relax- all will be good... and I agree about all that you write about perception, humility, arrogance etc etc... the problem is you´re coming off really strong and though I think that is awesome and all because I myself am one strong kiddie it just hurts more then helps here.. I have a very strong personality and it has been to some of my own hinderance here. I was only trying to say that what you wrote though maybe true (or untrue for that matter) it´s how other people precieve it.. and that is HUGE here... lets face it man we are not liked here AT ALL and so if we want to exist in this culture we just have to bite the lip some times and take in ass- very descriptive I know but it´s the truth.. pretty much everybody who has commented on your original entry has found it to be some what of a typical american I´m the best attitude... and like my mom always says, not all the people are wrong all the time... and I completely understand you about being sensitive especially with a big transistion that you have gone through with moving to spain... and I really think having no tolerance here is a big NO GOOD.... you need a LOT of tolerance here whether is from the neighbors loud music to the stinky man on the subway to people perceptions of a culture that really, a lot of them know nothing about but what they see on the tv... anyways it your personal energy you´re spending, just don´t give it to them... listen, laugh- one ear out the other.. really it´s the best advice, and I apperciate the apology.. I also would like to thank other´s for backing me up... we are all here to offer the most advice and help we can.. if you ever make it to valencia, let me know.. i love a good conversation especially ones about our culture compared to others.. i do wish you the best!!! take care
katy
ps. looking back on my entry- where the hell I got poo poo face I have no idea!!!! hahahahaha !!!!!

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[Jonniboy]

Interesting topic folks! I think Killmon has a totally valid point. To give my situation, I taught English for two years in Valencia without certificate and to be honest yes the first few months saw quite a few teethin troubles which I'd cope with a lot better now.

As far as I could see though if you have an EU passport, contacts and make enough effort then you'll get a job. Of course non-EU (ie USA) can't do that and so a TEFL really does seem to be necessary as a way of overcoming the illegal hurdle.

Now to developments since Spain! Last year I decided that I was going to head to Eastern Europe to teach for a while and through a combination of circumstances ended up here in Latvia where there are a pitiful number of language academies compared to Spain. I went for interview to one of the better sounding ones where he was insisting on TEFL certificate (which I don't have) .

Beforehand I looked into the possibility of doing the certificate in the summer between contracts but it just wasn't possible. There are no places in N.Ireland that do the full course over the Summer so that would have meant going away and when I added the course price to accommodation fees, flight costs, living costs plus lost earnings for a month of work we were talking 3500 -4000 euros   :unsure:  and there was no way that I could get that sort of cash together in 2 months. Nor was I really content to do so just to prove that I could do a job that I'd been doing for 2 years anyway!

To compromise, I'd been willing to do a shorter (and cheaper!!!) course 40 hours over two weekends plus another 40 hours online. But at the interview he said that that wasn't good enough cos he would only settle for the full 160 hours observed. I went away pretty pissed off as I just don't get the attitude. Surely employing someone that's done an 80 hour course AND HAS 2 YEARS experience and a proven track record (good refs etc) is better than employing someone fresh off a course?! To me a cert is a means to an end - ensuring that someone can do the job,  but it seems that for some employers it's like an end in itself! Even less understandable are places that insist on degrees only - yeah liking having a degree in Marine Biology really makes you a potentially better teacher than someone with 4 years experience doesn;t it?!  

Anyway in the end I found work in a less reputable academy who pay less but were happy to employ someone with experience, but as this may be my last year in the TEFL world I still really don't see the point in going now to do a Certificate course and if future employers don't give me a job because of lack of it then f%#* 'em cos it's their loss!    

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[killmon]

Thanks for the Reply!  And, I think your right, at this point if someone doesn't want to hire me based on my experience teaching and success in the corporate world than it is their loss. Whoever does hire me is going to have a quality employee that is going to be in the area permanently, which is less headaches for them (staffing and all). There are many schools and opportunities. Good luck to you and thanks again to all of you for your input (whether It was what I wanted to hear or not!   )

-Killmon
 

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[Mikahl]

Tells us how to change the system. I am intrigued. If you have a solution then we would all like to hear it. I am being quite serious. If you have a way to get around the certification and a university degree then help some other people out and give them an answer. Please don't just leave it at \"this is stupid and the acadamies that won't hire me are stupid.\"  

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[Jonniboy]

Tells us how to change the system. I am intrigued. If you have a solution then we would all like to hear it. I am being quite serious. If you have a way to get around the certification and a university degree then help some other people out and give them an answer. Please don't just leave it at "this is stupid and the acadamies that won't hire me are stupid."

I think it's very simple Mikahl, you give preference to people who have real proven experience in the classroom versus those who have paper qualifications but no experience. That was how things worked in other jobs that I worked in. In short you be a bit more flexible and don't take a dogmatic approach of \"certified good, uncertified bad.\"

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[mlwalton]

Hola gente!

My turn.    Ok so the question about certification and is it worth it comes down to you (not personally you Killmon, the general you) it comes down to how you want to approach your endevor to teach English.  

I'm going to give a personal example here that has nothing to do with teaching but everything to do with the \"weeding out\" process that employers use.  I'm a tech writer, I've worked on and off (off refering to when I taught English abroad and traveled) since 1998.  I am an excellent writer, and I have a nack for learning  new software, then turning around and writing a simplified end-user friendly, how-to manual about said software.  However, I do not have a bachelor's degree.  I have an Associates of Arts degree (which is basically worthless   ) but for the level of my profession, when I have wanted to go for a new job, I would get weeded out in the first cut because all the companies require a bachelor's degree of some sort.  

Would a bachelor's make me more qualified to do my job then my experience?  I'm thinking, no.  But that's not really the concern of the potential employer.  The potential employer is looking for a certain level of education, sophistication and knowledge base that they've decided to quantify by using a bachelor's degree as measure.

So then (if you're American) the cards are stacked against you, if you don't have a TEFL (or comparable) certification and no legal papers and little experience teaching English as a foreign language.  Would it then be a benefit then to persue a TEFL certificate?  Well that depends upon you (again the general you - just restating my previous disclaimer ).
 
I'd say, in my opinion, that persuing a TEFL certificate is worth it, if you want to teach English.

So then if you decide to get a certification because you've decided it would be worth it to have (as you need to stack whatever you can in your own favor if you're not an EU national) then the question becomes finding a good course.  Of course there are a lot of good courses out there, that's not the question.  Because the reality is, there are good courses and bad courses just like with anything.  I have only heard of two (at least that I can recall) people who thought their certifiction was completely useless.  

I will tell you that initially when I started teaching (I lived in Prague) that my certification course had not fully prepared me for real-world experience, but what schooling prepares you for real-world experience?  High school?  College?  Nothing.  Nothing but actually doing it (whatever \"it\" is) gives you real-world experience....(sorry I know that was redundant but I haven't had my second cup of coffee :blink: ).

 

 

Buena suerte and let us know what you decide.  

Salud!
Michelle Save the   :siesta:  

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[RebeccaG]

I think it's very simple Mikahl, you give preference to people who have real proven experience in the classroom versus those who have paper qualifications but no experience. That was how things worked in other jobs that I worked in. In short you be a bit more flexible and don't take a dogmatic approach of \"certified good, uncertified bad.\"

This is definitely and interesting topic, and I liked Mikahl's challenge to everyone of explaining how to change the system...

Johnniboy, I agree with you from an anglo-saxon perspective. The degree, title, certification, etc is only part and parcel of a potential candidate...especially in the United States (I cannot speak for the UK) where employers are more willing to give the opportunity to those who demonstrate potential although they don't have the title/certificate/degree. The chances for employment and advancement are greater in circumstances like that.

However, what many people fail to recognize is that it's very difficult to take your perspective and idea of business culture and bring it to an entirely new culture/society and expect them to think the same way you do. Countries such as Spain, Italy, and even France, are much more dogmatic in their approach. There is much more value placed on education and much more respect given to those who have persued higher degrees or additional training. This is seen in all levels of society, including in the hiring processes.

Katy hit the nail on the head when she said that you have to come here, suck it up and start from the bottom like everyone else. In a sense, eat a piece of that \"humble pie\" that expat teacher referred to. When I first moved here, I was extremely frustrated at the employment/hiring process. And even more indignant when my (Spanish) husband suggested that I \"dumb down\" my resume (CV) to increase my chances of being hired. I didn't work professionally in the States for 12+ years, have an undergraduate and graduate degree to \"dumb down\" my CV, sell myself short, and \"settle\"...all those things they tell you NOT to do in the States. However, you can't buck the system forever.

So, I sucked it up and started at the bottom. After all, teaching English was a new field for me even though I had years of training experience under my belt and spoke English natively and Spanish fluently. After what I felt was sufficient time gathering experience working for others I decided to branch out on my own. This has all taken place in a span of 4 years. It's very difficult to do this overnight.

What I am trying to say is that you can't expect the system to change for you, especially when you aren't even in the system (legally much less illegally). You need to get in the system first, determine what you think the \"flaws\" are and then work for positive change..if in fact, change is necessary.

The other option is to come here, recognize and understand (although not necessarily agree with) the system and operate within it. And then, when you are ready, spread your wings and fly out on your own. One of the advantages of living in another culture is understanding other points of views and taking in diffferent perspectives. You soon realize that your point of view and perspective is but one of a kalaidescope of perspectives and that \"your way\" isn't the only way\".

In the end maybe you decide to do your own thing such as Tony and I have done. That is fine and admirable. It takes a certain amount of guts, nerves, chutzpah, etc to start a business on your own...especially in a new culture/environment. However, my sincere words of advice would be to get the experience first of living in the system before trying to change it.

As far as what is a reasonable price to pay for a TEFL cert. or how valuable a TEFL cert is? Read Michelle's last post. She brings up a good point. How much do you really want to get established here in Spain as an English teacher? How much is it worth to you? Will it help you in the long run (stack the cards in your favor) or simply be some additional fluff that you don't need? Only you can answer those questions, not anyone else. You (general you) know yourself better than any virtual stranger in a forum knows you. You know what your strengths and weaknesses are...what your threshold is. Decide for yourself and make an educated decision.

Good luck everyone!

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[OhMyStaz]

Hello!

(Happy new year, by the way! :nydance: )

my response addresses the original post - is it worth it to drop a dime on a celta course?

I took my course from international house budapest in january, 2004.  i started looking at celta courses in 1999, had decided to take the course with IH and was trying to decide between budapest and barcelona, bcause they were the 2 least expensive places to take it.  then i got a job in slovakia without a certificate, so i didn't have to make the choice.  But I couldn't get teaching work without the certificate once i moved to holland, so ...

that's me - certified in hungary.

that course was the the best professional decision i have made in my life.  that course was also the most intense, difficult thing i have ever gone for in my life - and i didn't score as well as i wanted - and i think, now, about taking it again for an \"A\" - this time in barcelona.

my course was a four-week mull-over about whether or not i wanted to teach english.  my course was a four-week obstacle course in stress managemet.  my course was a place to get a lot of REALLY useful information.

my course proved to me the value of a CELTA course.

i was curious if you're in spain yet?  i thought your original post was clever, and was wondering how it's going now.

it is my opinion - and i don't have an informed one yet! - that it's possible for people without certificates to get work in spain, and if they're not serious about TEACHING - if they can do it, then grab the expeience - go for it!  however, that's a totally different career path from me.

and, if you've taught english before, i don't see why we're having this discussion ... i thought the CELTA certificate was for native speakers who want to teach english ... that's not the same (this is an abstract, specific difference, people! and JUST an illustration, and imho   :wub: ) as an english teacher.  [ducks under the desk]

in the TEFL game ... the TEFL cert can be thought of as ... validation.  it's a diploma.   people who have it, in general, are taken more seriouly.  (i should hope)

TEFL mills are a topic i find interesting, as well ... but i have no experience with those.

i think this is a pretty interesting - and maybe quite controversial - topic.

i appreciate everyone's input!

staz :nykiss1:  

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[killmon]

Sorry for the delay!  

       It is 2 am an this is not a part of a planed lesson (lesson plan) and I don’t give a •$%& if anything is correct   ….that is my disclaimer for people that were going to critique my writing and tell me I need a TEFL so I write correctly. Please acknowledge that writing lacks tonal intonation, that controversial topics are easily interpreted with more aggression than intended (due to ones own sensitivities), and know that I love you all and appreciate you opinions no matter how much sense they make (mine are included)  :blink:
 
      (tefl will be spelled in small caps and incorrectly in accordance with my protest; Kind of like people that don’t capitalize the word God in their writing.)
(I capitalize the word God in my writing due to admitted ignorance to it existence. It is possible and I don’t wanna be screwed latter for something stupid like not capitalizing its name. Everything I have read about God suggests a lot of vanity and small caps is just the thing to piss it off.)

     Let’s remember I started this thread by asking for a good place for a cert which implies I do believe they have value. However, the value depends on ones experience teaching and what a tefl adds. I have not found one that is worth what is charged for what it adds to my ability to teach.
      And really folks, the processes for teaching, although many, are the same for all things; the content is what is different. Hence there are different levels of content knowledge and different levels of teaching it. I may not have the knowledge and background to teach, Lets say, the advanced application of `Chomsky’s theory of the structure of languages´ But, many people without tefl can teach beginning English and probably more, without a tefl.
Schools don’t need to a tefl to be able to tell and nor does it weed out people that aren’t good teachers. If a Director of a school can honestly tell me that every person that they have interviewed that has a tefl was a good teacher then I will admit defeat on the TEFL point.
        Again, I understand that it has real benefits on some levels but again it depends on ones experience and in NO WAY INSURES THE QUALITY OF TEACHING. It will have very little effect on ones understanding of the content (in this case a language). It takes years to really understand a language and at the most it will be a refresher for a person to realize ¨oh crap I forgot what a Demonstrative Adjective is\"

Ok, Sorry for the intro (I like to read myself type), Now to the last question:


      First is the reason that none of the inconsistencies in the reasoning for REQUIRING a tefl matter (If you are only listing your available jobs on a tefl site you are requiring a tefl). Schools are institutions and are not much different than corporations selling a product (unless they are giving all their classes for free). And, that means that changing them by yourself is very difficult (not going to happen).

       Second is because these certifications are not only so schools can insure (which it doesn’t) that they have someone that knows what they are doing but also, so they can promote there services to customers (look we have certified people). And, in turn prospective employees can market them selves to schools.
I am assuming that most schools have figured out that just because a person has a tefl does not mean they can teach and just because they don’t doesn’t mean they can’t. However, many schools offer certifications and therefore profit from it directly as well as probably become a little complacent to the system (meaning maybe they have not begin to question the system and how effective it is for them).

       Third and the real the answer to your question is that knowing what is the problem, why it was created, and the SYMPTOM of the problem rarely have any relevance to the solution and is nothing more than an interesting topic. For instance, the problem is not that schools limit their hiring using a flawed set of standards. The problem is that schools limit their hiring using a flawed set of standards THAT I (or you) DON¨T MEET. (lol)  That really is the problem you are referring to when you ask what is the solution. So, I (or you) have to either change the system used, sub-come to the system, wait for it to change for some other reason, circumvent it. Or just want something other than a job in it…hehehe  
If I decided that I did not what a job with in that system; that would be just as much a SOLUTION for me as any other and has nothing to do with the system itself. You could do the same.

     Or, without changing what you want, you can use the system against itself (circumvent). When I sit down in front of someone interviewing me and they ask if I have a tefl I ask,” Why are you asking?” and they say (very confused because many times they have know idea why they really are asking the question and aren’t expecting a question in return), “ Well, It means you have the basic skills to do the job.” And, then we have a conversation about what they think is need to do the job effectively and I show I have those skills. And then I begin to simply destroy their whole concept of how a tefl certification is a good thing for them and show that it could be a bad thing for them.
For instance, Many People seeking teaching jobs, in foreign countries, are seeking temporary employment and may not be around for more than 6 months to a year, I am permanent and hiring a new person will be one less thing they need to do next semester. Or, are straight out of college and, all though inelegant and certified people, they ONLY have a tefl and very little actual time in front of a class. I have taught many classes (including English).
     So, the system created this thing call a tefl, to improve (but that is only secondary) the product been sold, to increase market ability, and sell more language services (hmmm, including tefl?).
 So, though a conversation, I over come the objections to me not having a tefl and directly undermine (or in this case completely expose the faulsality (is that a word, LOL) of the belief that it is benefiting them and their school (in my case). That it should not be used in considering me as an employee.  And, in turn, I am successfully hired for a teaching job.

      If you show that you can do the job and a person does not hire you,  than yes PlEASE… express exasperation and boredom. Tell them that they are dazed and unable to think clearly (due to systematic tefl brain washing) that they are lacking intelligence or common sense and you are glad you aren’t going to work for stupid people. That would be quite fitting. And, what do you care? There not hiring you anyway.

stupid
  • adjective (stupider, stupidest) 1 lacking intelligence or common sense. 2 informal used to express exasperation or boredom: your stupid paintings! 3 dazed and unable to think clearly.
  — DERIVATIVES stupidity noun stupidly adverb.
—   ORIGIN Latin stupidus, from stupere ‘be amazed or stunned’.

See, Stupid is the right word.

    Another side point, I have known a lot of teachers. And, they (we) can be quite idealistic. Please, don’t tell me teaching is not about the money. I understand that there are great things about teaching that are definitely aside from the money. However, I have had many a teacher get all huffy about it and, quit frankly, to say that you don’t teach for the money is silly…. If you have some other job and you teach at night, voluntarily, for a group of people that give free classes than you really are my hero. But if you get paid to teach…hush up about the whole \"I teach because I am trying to help people.\" That is part of it, however, that not the part i am talking about. If you weren’t getting paid, would you teach the same amount of time?  That means you teach for money… like everyone; just like the guy that works for wall mart (he is getting paid to help people find stuff in a biggggg assss store). And, there is nothing wrong with that…hell we gotta eat. Just please don’t get pissed because I talk about the pink elephants in the middle of the room. This way it won’t sit on as many people.

To Kat (who although has sharp claws, at least speaks, and that is a good thing), I remember reading a thank you in this thread from you to the people that “backed you up” by agreeing with your perception of my comments. The number of people that agree with what you (or I) perceive NEVER has anything to do with accuracy of your (or my) perceptions.
Examples:

There was a time the majority of THE WORLD belived the world was flat. (that is a lot of people)

In 1933, 20 million people voted for hitler (they all agreed on their perception).

Half the population in the U.S (Ma or Meno, jodar!) believe Bush is the man for the Job!!! (proving what I am say is true even today)

And, the list goes on for ever.

     So, please don’t believe that just because people perceive things as you do that it is accurate. Most of the time…the more people that agree with us, the further from accurate we are.


So, in conclusion… You always want something, the solution is what ever gets you what you want and falls with your ethics….your ethics are directly influenced by your wants and until you understand  them both they are easily influence until you realize the are easily influanced…(that’s why marketing works)  and,  even then…it is tricky. When you really believe something strongly, question it; ask your self what you want and then you can look at why you want it.…  like cigarettes, like a Big Mac and a coke , like to be right.
Damn I get deep in the A.M.

The Solution is in conversations...some where, have them.

I hope that at the very least it was an interesting read.

Ta-le-go, Killmon



 

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[zorrasabia]

Hi Killmon,

I'm English, TEFL qualified, but, as yet, wihout real experience in teaching English to foreign students - I have 22 years' prior work experience in the U.K. Education system, part of which was spent teaching English to British kids, but am still a novice, re. TEFL teaching, so far.

Interestingly, the Cambridge Cert. which I completed, does state the grade achieved - 'A' ,'B' or 'Pass' - with an explanation of each, in terms of the abilities to be expected, at each level, by any prospective employer!

Believe me, an 'A'. or 'B' at an I.H. school is very hard won, with most students achieving a 'Pass' and being hugely greatful for it!! (In my class, the only 'A' was gained by a brilliant teacher with five years prior teaching in Japan!).

The reality is that E.U. Language schools are likely to become ever more 'professionalised' in every sense,  as students, teachers and TEFL Associations are calling for agreed standards and state registration re. qualified and Police - checked teachers,(no school in the U.K. would now risk hiring anyone to teach children, without a Police check for any criminal record),  curriculum content,  examination passes,  safety requirements for school buildings, resources etc.etc!  
  Personally, I think that's a good thing, as both students and teachers should get a better deal!

Although I understand and appreciate your claim that your prior experience should not be discounted, without a TEFL qualification, the reality is that most customers, (e.g. students, parents or companies), of Language Schools would want to know that their teachers had, at least, been assessed as competent and effective, within a TEFL framework, whether at Cert. Diploma or degree level!

How else would they be able to assess applicants like yourself, given very limited time and the fact that most candidates could produce at least one brilliant lesson for demonstration purposes, given enough prior warning of the interview date?

When apponiting to new posts,  the D.O.S's simply don't always have the time to get to know each interviewee in great depth, or to try to assess the value of  potentially unknown qualifications offered by candidates from colleges in other countries!

  A school's requirement for TEFL qualified applicants would suggest to me that it's seeking an appropriate 'shorthand' means of ensuring at least a basic grasp of currently approved teaching methodology, professional terminology, knowledge of assessment and examination processes and criteria, English grammar and an assessed ability for an applicant to operate effectively and appropriately as a teacher in a classroom! (though still very much a 'work in progress'). LOL

Youm may well have much more skill, experience and talent, but by what means could that be assessed in a short interview?


 Of course, the problem is that TEFL courses vary so widely, but, for me, the solution would be to standardize course requirements, rather than insisting that schools should find a way to assess each job applicant through some wholly individual criteria, in each case -  in reality, that just isn't going to happen!
 'Cowboy' schools which recruit untrained, inexperienced English speakers as cheap teachers' will soon be under increased threat,  whilst more reputable schools are now forming professional bodies, and calling for tighter regulation, E.U. -wide!

I know that this could mean the potential loss of experienced, non TEFL -trained teachers, like yourself, but, generally, students would, surely,  be better served by a requirement for all such schools to be externally assessed, monitored and approved, before being able to charge students fees for what should be a professional service!
(In the U.K. the Govt. pays  certain schools and colleges, for English Language classes, on behalf of refugees and asylum teachers, so does have influence on the standard required, in those centres, anyway).
Future employers of these new English speakers, are, no doubt, also making their voices heard, in requiring  the same!  

So, I do think that your views are being overtaken, by an E.U. -wide move towards increased standardisation, in all sorts of areas, including Language Schools! There is a downside, but, in my view, the students have most to gain from this process - not so likely to get 'ripped off!'

BTW - If I went to the U.S. to apply for a job and then told the employer exactly why his process was 'stupid', wrong and in need of changing to suit myself, would he be more or less likely to choose me, above the many other candidates competing for that post? (I'm just curious!!). LOL

Zorrasabia.

 

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[killmon]

Hi all!


Well,lets take the last part first (It is a funny question).

BTW - If I went to the U.S. to apply for a job and then told the employer exactly why his process was 'stupid', wrong and in need of changing to suit myself, would he be more or less likely to choose me, above the many other candidates competing for that post? (I'm just curious!!). LOL

For the record, it not suiting me is not the reasons it is stupid.

     In America!? If they process was REALLY stupid (and not just because changing it suits you) They would listen and would change the process. Or, others would and put them out of bizzzzz.
   
     To have a stupid process and not change it because someone told you that you have a stupid process is…stupid.
   
     I require my employees to tell me when they think I am incorrect (stupid, which happens to the best of us). Too many people pick harmony over conflict when harmony is doing more damage.  
   
   If a prospective employee were to say, “Hay, if you don’t hire me I will leave here thinking you are stupid and here is why….” I would be really intrigued and at least listen. And, if their argument made sense (like mine) I WOULD hire them. And, then thank them for not letting me make a stupid mistake, mentor them, give them the tools and skills they need, and probably promote them.
     
     If I had a tefl that would not make it, as a standard,as a standard,as a standard, less… stupid.

    The logic that is being used to support certs as a standard is...effective marketing (does not need to make scense). A tefl is not an effective standard; 22 years…. effective, 2 weeks….NO (as a standard). Why do intelligent people argue that? Marketing…you have bought the bull.

     If the employer said to me, “sorry I am hiring a guy with 22 years experience.” I would say well that makes some sense. You would be stupid if you didn’t. But to hear they are hiring a 18 year old with a tefl… that aint good for the students (sorry 18 year old's with a tefl. on your defence I don't think they shouldn't hire you solely on actual experiance either).


     And, (lol) I suggested saying that they are stupid after they decided not to hire you, because they are stupid. Then you don’t have anything to lose.


     So, stupid processes only stay in place if they service some function other than the one claimed (an effective standard to insure the quality for students and schools). Sense it dose not do that it has to be something else. And that is… it is a business now.

How else would they be able to assess applicants like yourself, given very limited time and the fact that most candidates could produce at least one brilliant lesson for demonstration purposes, given enough prior warning of the interview date?

Ahh, with a resume and a conversation? Ask them to teach you something, I do. It is very effective, and just as spontaneous as questions from a student. Take the time…schools are responsible for everyone they hire. Just because the got a tefl, thats is a great standard and they should feel dandy about it…not. Lol  

Youm may well have much more skill, experience and talent, but by what means could that be assessed in a short interview?

   
     Essentially I just heard, “they don’t have anything better so it makes sense to use something called tefl and imply that it accurately asses ones capabilities” Or, they are to lazy.
     
  Time is not limited, it is infinite. Their time management skills might be limited; It is a tool like others. Time is constant. You know where it is all the… time. If a director can’t plan, why is he directing ( I know it aint easy but it their responsibility).


A tefl  DOES NOT MEAN:

ensuring at least a basic grasp of currently approved teaching methodology ( who’s?), professional terminology(content), knowledge of assessment and examination processes and criteria(content and easily gained), English grammar (content and takes a life time) and an assessed ability for an applicant to operate effectively and appropriately as a teacher in a classroom(appropriately to who? I have had students tell me speaking English in an English class is inappropriate)!

A tefl DOES MEAN:

shorthanded

teach
  • verb (past and past part. taught) 1 impart knowledge to or instruct in how to do something, especially in a school or as part of a recognized programme. 2 give instruction in (a subject or skill). 3 cause to learn by example or experience. 4 advocate as a practice or principle.
  — DERIVATIVES teachable adjective teaching noun.
—   ORIGIN Old English, show, present, point out.

Notice the \" OR as part of a recognized programme.\"

Lets look:

programme
(US program)

  • noun 1 a planned series of events. 2 a radio or television broadcast. 3 a set of related measures or activities with a long-term aim. 4 a sheet or booklet detailing items or performers at an event. 5 (program) a series of coded software instructions to control the operation of a computer or other machine.

  • verb (programmed, programming; US programed, programing) 1 (program) provide (a computer) with a program. 2 cause to behave in a predetermined way. 3 arrange according to a plan or schedule.

  — DERIVATIVES programmable adjective programmer noun.

  — ORIGIN Greek programma, from prographein ‘write publicly’.

      NOWHERE dose it say “standardized programme”. Why would people believe standardized is better than let’s say... effective... Maybe, because standards are controllable in away too produce profits and effective depends on the students, environment, and the teachers ability to adapt to both.

     It does come from the Greek word 'prographein'  'write publicly'. So, people can decide if they what to learn there.  The school with the best program gets the most students, teaching the most effectively, and produces higher quality of education. Now allthey have to write is \"we are tefl certified\"

     Now, everyone is not forced to improve there education as long as they meet the low standard of a tefl. It is the people’s only choice, no where else to go but to the local tefl school. Not effective but someone’s making money!

An interesting note:


History of Teaching
     In ancient Egypt, China, and India, teaching was often the responsibility of priests or prophets, who enjoyed prestige and privileges. The ancient Greeks saw value in educating children, and wealthy Greeks often hired teachers for their households. During the first five centuries AD in the Roman Empire, citizens often had teacher-slaves.

      By the Middles Ages in Europe, the Roman Catholic Church had taken over the responsibility of teaching, which it allocated to monasteries and specially designed learning centers. Many of these learning centers later evolved into major universities. During the 17th and 18th centuries, interest in children's education intensified. Throughout Europe, knowledge about teaching methods increased, and many new schools were founded. Training other teachers in new educational theories and teaching techniques significantly advanced education.

I     n North America, education was an important part of colonial development. Laws were passed requiring elementary schools in towns with more than 50 families, and many Latin grammar schools were established for secondary education. Many prominent early Americans strongly argued for a national education system as a means of harnessing the young talent of the nation. However, in North America it was not until the 20th century that teachers received a professional status.


I see the church and the governments in there...hmmmmm...

If governments are people based and controlled, and not cooperate, social implied standards can be a good thing. But as our worlds governments becomes more and more corporate based; so will the goals of the standards imposed by it.

tefl certs are not improving the quality of education they are standardizing it in a low, controllable, but profitable state.

We will all be little tefl robots... just kidding!

Ok, enough, tefl is a good little warm up and a crappie standard... that’s all I am saying. It is the industry standard right now and I don't meet it. It sucks and I am great!  That’s all I am saying! The “I am great” part is the most important and is why I will never bow to the power of the tefl (I am lying I might :puke: ) But I won't like it (especially if I fail....can you fail a tefl? :blink: ).

Anywho, angin, I hear about the Cambridge cert... I have a job now but maybe for when I don't....

Heave a great...Whats the next holiday? Spain is loaded with holidays... there has to be one  in the next 2 weeks...

pasta!

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